Thursday, September 27, 2007

Sasktoon 8th


Anonymous said...

Love the short plateau green holes. This one looks just a bit too symetrical for my taste. Also the wide open front makes for a rather boring, engineered look. The elevated slope takes the pitch and run shot off the table so the only way on is to drop one on. You have a bunker behind but it can't be seen and a grass hollow would have served the same purpose (but making it harder for lower handicaps and easier for higher handicaps). I would have spent that money on a fronting pot bunker ala #10 Pine Valley to make club and swing selection more important. It would help if you would inform us of what direction the wind blows from. The flanking bunkers take on more importance if there is a cross-wind while a fronting pot with either a head or tail wind would make one have to really ponder the shot.

Henrye said...

The graphics look great and with the countour video, it really gives a good sense of the hole. Don't know the green size but reminds me a bit of the postage stamp with bunkers as opposed to coffins. I'll disagree with Anonymous on the boring comment.

Anonymous said...

henrye, still on the couch? The Postage Stamp - # * at Royal Troon is set into the side of a high sandhill which rises on the left and is protected by 2 bunkers on each side and a bunker in front - HMMM-where have I heard that before? the bunkers on the right are very dep with verticle sides and the green is only about a dozen yds wide with a steep downslope to the rear. PS before 1923 this hole was called the Ailsa. If you can't get to Scotland, RTJII and Don Knott produced a nice redition at Spanish Bay.

henrye said...

Anony. After a short sabatical, I'm back sitting with you again. Your exacting description certainly highlights the differences, but I find that often very different holes can have some similar characteristics. I said it "reminds me", not that it was a replica.

BTW, I wasn't around in '23 but found your history lesson 'rather boring' - sorry I couldn't help myself.

Anyway, I'll grab the remote and switch channels - I like the design.

Ian Andrew said...


You feel free to offer comment and criticize others who comment, yet:
1. you have not walked the site
2. I doubt you have any knowledge of Bill Kinnear’s architecture
3. you know none of the surrounding issues from money, to wind, to membership.

You call the hole too symmetrical – yet that is based upon a pattern in Kinnear’s architecture. You call the look engineered – what - based upon my image? Do you think it will look exactly like the image? You realize your looking at a “painting” not a “photograph.” You call the wide open front boring! I ask you , is the Bad Baby at Jasper boring? The sharp slope in front represents the possibility of coming up only a foot short and having the ball slowly roll back 15 feet away from the green – how can that be boring? Yet a weaker player can play a low shot and bounce the ball onto this green with a longer club; and doesn’t have to face the intimidation that a bunker would give. You understand that short grass is the key to balancing difficulty and playability. You suggested a grass hollow for the back – why – because you think a bunker must be seen to be used? You said I should have spent my money on a fronting pot bunker ala #10 Pine Valley – have you ever worked with a membership? – there is a time and place for that idea, but a renovation to a family club isn’t it.

To answer your question – a good one - it’s a cross-wind from right to left.

Post your name next time.

Anonymous said...

Sorry if I hit a nerve. I was under the impression that you started this Blog for an open discourse. Not only if you choose to agree and praise. Unfortunately, I mistook your image for a photo of the completed work. I guess I jumped to that conculsion because the drawing had a retangular green with parallel bunkers and the image looked like a rounder green with the bunkers running away at an angle. So I mistakenly assumed that some field changes had already occurred.
As for the membership, that info wasn't provided, I was just going off the previous 2 holes which appear to be challenging.
Also, I never said YOU should do anything, only what I would do. Perhaps that's why golf courses are so varied. And yes I personally hate hidden hazards and I think that a bunker shot to a green sloping away is one of the hardest shots for the average golfer - but that's just me - my opinion. Never said you have to subscribe to it. Family club you say?
Why do you want to know who I am? Why does that matter?

henrye said...

Anony. You suggestions were noble even if they were a bad idea. You comments show just how different an opinion everyone has on golf design. I think Ian's explanation is very good, but I suspect if you don't like hidden bunkers, you would always have some issue with the hole.
Don't be afraid to disagree (especially with someone like me), but if you take issues with an archie's design (someone with experience who has spent hours/days researching and designing every aspect of a hole), you better be prepared to take it on the chin.

ASGCA Member said...

Henrye, don't be so quick to assume that Anonymous isn't an architect in his/hers own right. The verbage used, along w/the RTJII - Don Knott reference is something that only an industry insider would make reference to. Perhaps that's why Ian was curious who it is and probably equally why Anonymous wishes to stay that way (as do I).
The back and forth was fun to follow. As my mentor was found of saying - "it's hard to grow in a vaccuum".

Ian Andrew said...

Anony, is the perfect place for an open discourse on golf architecture – not here – this is my place to express my thoughts about architecture. When I’m discussing conceptual ideas – all comments are welcome – but when I’m offering my own design work - it’s just a little too personal.

You began by asking questions – which I answered - but decided mid-week that you would rather express yourself instead. When you decided to comment on others – I didn’t like that. I suggest you take up a blog – give me a link – and I’ll share it with anyone who reads this blog. That way you can express your own philosophy and see what others think about your ideas.

Why do I want to know who you are? As the ASGCA’r said, “Don Knott reference is something that only an industry insider would make reference to.” I'm just not sure how to take you.

henrye said...

asgca'er: I didn't make any assumptions as to Anony's profession or education. However, if he is, don't you think he'd have picked up that the image Ian posted was a graphic as opposed to a photo?
I'll agree that the back and forth was fun. Just hope my couch buddy hasn't been scared off.