Basically a good idea of course. Bouncing fairways are much more fun. Can't help feeling you're shooting yourself in the foot with the decision that fairways would then need to be wider. That means more area to be maintained, and from a green credentials point of view, that means, (apart from greater resources needed for upkeep), less area for insects to flourish. Fewer insects, less wildlife. They are the staple of the food chain lest we forget. I say keep the fairways narrow, and make the hitting of a fairway a real reward. If you don't want to make the course too tough widen the semi-rough. In these areas the grass would still be short enough to play from, ensuring the game is not too difficult, but long enough to affect spin, thus, with the firmer conditions, making holding a green difficult. Even semi rough allows for a lot of types of insect to live and breed, let alone wild flowers. Fairways support almost none. To further support the accuracy rewards, keep the front sides of the greens defended by small (easy maintenance - fewer resources) bunkers. Miss the fairway and the target for running the ball onto the green is shrunk due to the angles. This rewards those that can hit a 30 yard wide fairway, or even better, those that choose to hit a 30 yard wide fairway by playing sensibly from the tee. Widen the fairway and you open the course up to the long and inaccurate, thus creating the need for 450 yard par 4's. I know you like short par 4's, so go have fun. Make a course tight, and you can keep it shorter - how green is that?
Can you please explain how you can have semi-rough short enough to make it playable but yet long enough to grow wild flowers? That sounds like a native area to me, not playable semi-rough just off a 30y fairway?
The only sensible play from the tee on a course with 30y wide fairways is to hit it straight. How fun is that? Not sure if you have noticed but most every day golfers don't hit it straight so having them play from the rough most of the round is not a way to grow the game.
By the way, 450 yards is no longer a long par four. 500+ yards is a long par four, keep up with the technology!
So, narrow fairways, encroach bunkers front right and front left on greens to promote even more straightness. WOW, way to go th, make golf as one dimensional as possible and as boring as possible. That will have them coming in droves to start learning the game. What great viewing on TV as well!! Every hole that looks and plays the same. That will actually help the environment, just have one hole courses.
And you think I talk drivel??? I play on a variety of courses in my local area, and 30 yard wide fairways are the norm, many of them played by happy hackers. They have wide areas of semi-rough, which are playable, and support numerous wild flowers. Have you no knowledge of botany? Not all flowers are garden flowers, some are but an inch or two high, including rare orchids in this area. I'm well aware that 500 yards is considered long these days, but only for the pros and good amateur. For most players, and I thought this site was concerned more with the average player, 450 yards is a LONG par 4. Don't try to be so pathetically patronising. And of course I'm not suggesting every hole is to be the same, I'm just pointing out that there are ways of defending holes when the natural contours don't work. I'm rewarding straightness, not promoting it. Why should an off-line drive be rewarded with a fairway. I'm saying the off-line drive should have a difficult approach, not an impossible one, and to me the success of recovering from a difficult position is as enjoyable a feeling as you can get in golf. I should know, I can spray a ball with the best of them. This mania for wide fairways means people automatically pull out drivers and never really think about it. Don't have to. Bad shot? No problem it's still on the fairway. In a bunker? No problem, it's raked and the green is still on even though it's 150 yards away. Yeah, just give me the driver. Give people a challenge, and they start to use their imagination to rise to it. I suggest you try it sometime.
Just checked the width of fairways of about a dozen or so courses in the local area on Google Earth. Seems that I was mistaken with my claim that the fairways were 30 yard wide on average. 25 seems nearer the norm. Firm fairways too. They still seem to stay busy though. Seriously Josh, learn something about the world, golf, and your own imagination before you say I'm the one talking drivel.
I have played many of the top 20 courses in the world and played courses in a dozen countries. I spent many, many years living in another country so I am pretty sure I don't need to learn something about golf and the world. Of the hundreds of courses I have played I can not remember one single golf course that had 25y wide fairways that was fun and enjoyable. Sure, they were all golf courses, but not ones that leave you wanting more.
"Why should an offline drive be rewarded with fairway?", What a narrow minded comment. Just because a ball lays on fairway doesn't mean it has been rewarded. Ideally, in thoughtful designs, they would be faced with a more difficult approach, that's called strategy.
Please don't mistake accuracy for straightness. Being accurate to a ideal portion of the fairway should be rewarded. Just asking someone to hit it straight is just plain boring even for the crookedest of players. Angles, options and strategy, things that make golf fun, can only be employed in a design through width, simple as that. 18 narrow holes just aint gunna do it!
Presumably the top courses you've played have not included Royal County Down, Turnberry, Muirfield, Royal Birkdale, Royal Dornoch, etc. If not, don't bother, they all have fairways whose width is on average at most around 30 yards. Most of the holes tend to be defended front left and right, mainly by bunkers, though slopes can also play a part. Personally, despite this 'drivel' one-dimensional approach to golf, I found them varied and interesting courses. They went and dunnit for me. These courses all tend to put a premium on hitting a narrow fairway. It's how you choose to hit the fairway, and the choices you must make if you miss it that make these courses fun. Just because a fairway is narrow doesn't mean no decisions have to be made. Indeed, I find the opposite occurs. Give me a wide fairway, and I'll blaze away with a driver knowing that even if I miss the preferred area of the fairway, as long as I'm on it, I'll still tend to be able to attack a pin due to modern equipment and soft greens. If it's a narrow fairway and I try and blaze away with a driver, I'll probably miss, and finish in some sort of rough. In rough? No chance of spin to hold a firm green, and with the front sides defended, one way or another, (as they almost always are on the above courses), I'm going to have to have a serious think about the right strategy for saving par. Choices on every shot. From the tee - Blaze away, and risk it, or play with a little better course management. Missed fairway? How confident do I feel? Can I find a slope to gain some sort of advantage? Where's my best miss area? Give people a little bit more respect. Just because most people are crooked from the tee, doesn't mean fairways should be wide. Indeed people like challenges. It makes them think. Give them a wide fairway and they'll take advantage without even thinking about the shot in my experience. Give them a narrow fairway and you'll have them thinking. Get them thinking and golf is more interesting. I would hate a course with narrow fairways lined by hazards, (though the occasional hole can help remind people that they still have skills to work on). I'm talking about playable semi-rough (lots of buttercups and clover flowering in ours at the moment) that will cost you half a shot if you land in it. Nor am I saying no wide fairways, given the right conditions, a wide fairway can be interesting. You calling my approach narrow minded, is ironic, given your narrow-minded approach to fairway width. All I was trying to do was to show that, contrary to what Ian said in his otherwise excellent article, narrower fairways, in many cases, may be more suitable to firmer courses. It may seem counter-intuitive, but believe me, it works, and has the bonus of being greener. And isn't that what the article was all about? I do genuinely welcome your comments Josh, I'm enjoying try to explain what I'm so passionate about.
A question to you; assuming a more drought resistant grass is introduced into a "green" course; on the wider fairways, is "brown" grass in a semi-dormant state and therefore will require less cutting too? Roger
Is this question aimed at me, and my argument for narrower fairways, or for Ian? If it's for me then, yes, in my experience, brown areas of fairway requires to be cut less often. This doesn't mean it needs less maintenance than areas of semi-rough. Cutting fairways and semi is not really a major time consuming issue these days with modern machines. It's repairing wear, tear and stress problems that require time and effort. Semi-rough is naturally more resilient, and a swing is less likely to result in a divot. The impact area may leave the grass damaged, but this will repair more quickly than when the grass is completely removed. Semi-rough will require less upkeep.
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Basically a good idea of course. Bouncing fairways are much more fun. Can't help feeling you're shooting yourself in the foot with the decision that fairways would then need to be wider. That means more area to be maintained, and from a green credentials point of view, that means, (apart from greater resources needed for upkeep), less area for insects to flourish. Fewer insects, less wildlife. They are the staple of the food chain lest we forget. I say keep the fairways narrow, and make the hitting of a fairway a real reward. If you don't want to make the course too tough widen the semi-rough. In these areas the grass would still be short enough to play from, ensuring the game is not too difficult, but long enough to affect spin, thus, with the firmer conditions, making holding a green difficult. Even semi rough allows for a lot of types of insect to live and breed, let alone wild flowers. Fairways support almost none. To further support the accuracy rewards, keep the front sides of the greens defended by small (easy maintenance - fewer resources) bunkers. Miss the fairway and the target for running the ball onto the green is shrunk due to the angles. This rewards those that can hit a 30 yard wide fairway, or even better, those that choose to hit a 30 yard wide fairway by playing sensibly from the tee. Widen the fairway and you open the course up to the long and inaccurate, thus creating the need for 450 yard par 4's. I know you like short par 4's, so go have fun. Make a course tight, and you can keep it shorter - how green is that?
ReplyDeleteth,
ReplyDeleteHuh? WOW, what an absolute pile of drivel.
Can you please explain how you can have semi-rough short enough to make it playable but yet long enough to grow wild flowers? That sounds like a native area to me, not playable semi-rough just off a 30y fairway?
The only sensible play from the tee on a course with 30y wide fairways is to hit it straight. How fun is that? Not sure if you have noticed but most every day golfers don't hit it straight so having them play from the rough most of the round is not a way to grow the game.
By the way, 450 yards is no longer a long par four. 500+ yards is a long par four, keep up with the technology!
So, narrow fairways, encroach bunkers front right and front left on greens to promote even more straightness. WOW, way to go th, make golf as one dimensional as possible and as boring as possible. That will have them coming in droves to start learning the game. What great viewing on TV as well!! Every hole that looks and plays the same. That will actually help the environment, just have one hole courses.
Josh
And you think I talk drivel??? I play on a variety of courses in my local area, and 30 yard wide fairways are the norm, many of them played by happy hackers. They have wide areas of semi-rough, which are playable, and support numerous wild flowers. Have you no knowledge of botany? Not all flowers are garden flowers, some are but an inch or two high, including rare orchids in this area. I'm well aware that 500 yards is considered long these days, but only for the pros and good amateur. For most players, and I thought this site was concerned more with the average player, 450 yards is a LONG par 4. Don't try to be so pathetically patronising. And of course I'm not suggesting every hole is to be the same, I'm just pointing out that there are ways of defending holes when the natural contours don't work. I'm rewarding straightness, not promoting it. Why should an off-line drive be rewarded with a fairway. I'm saying the off-line drive should have a difficult approach, not an impossible one, and to me the success of recovering from a difficult position is as enjoyable a feeling as you can get in golf. I should know, I can spray a ball with the best of them. This mania for wide fairways means people automatically pull out drivers and never really think about it. Don't have to. Bad shot? No problem it's still on the fairway. In a bunker? No problem, it's raked and the green is still on even though it's 150 yards away. Yeah, just give me the driver. Give people a challenge, and they start to use their imagination to rise to it. I suggest you try it sometime.
ReplyDeleteJust checked the width of fairways of about a dozen or so courses in the local area on Google Earth. Seems that I was mistaken with my claim that the fairways were 30 yard wide on average. 25 seems nearer the norm. Firm fairways too. They still seem to stay busy though. Seriously Josh, learn something about the world, golf, and your own imagination before you say I'm the one talking drivel.
ReplyDeleteth,
ReplyDeleteI have played many of the top 20 courses in the world and played courses in a dozen countries. I spent many, many years living in another country so I am pretty sure I don't need to learn something about golf and the world. Of the hundreds of courses I have played I can not remember one single golf course that had 25y wide fairways that was fun and enjoyable. Sure, they were all golf courses, but not ones that leave you wanting more.
"Why should an offline drive be rewarded with fairway?", What a narrow minded comment. Just because a ball lays on fairway doesn't mean it has been rewarded. Ideally, in thoughtful designs, they would be faced with a more difficult approach, that's called strategy.
Please don't mistake accuracy for straightness. Being accurate to a ideal portion of the fairway should be rewarded. Just asking someone to hit it straight is just plain boring even for the crookedest of players. Angles, options and strategy, things that make golf fun, can only be employed in a design through width, simple as that. 18 narrow holes just aint gunna do it!
Josh
Presumably the top courses you've played have not included Royal County Down, Turnberry, Muirfield, Royal Birkdale, Royal Dornoch, etc. If not, don't bother, they all have fairways whose width is on average at most around 30 yards. Most of the holes tend to be defended front left and right, mainly by bunkers, though slopes can also play a part. Personally, despite this 'drivel' one-dimensional approach to golf, I found them varied and interesting courses. They went and dunnit for me. These courses all tend to put a premium on hitting a narrow fairway. It's how you choose to hit the fairway, and the choices you must make if you miss it that make these courses fun.
ReplyDeleteJust because a fairway is narrow doesn't mean no decisions have to be made. Indeed, I find the opposite occurs. Give me a wide fairway, and I'll blaze away with a driver knowing that even if I miss the preferred area of the fairway, as long as I'm on it, I'll still tend to be able to attack a pin due to modern equipment and soft greens. If it's a narrow fairway and I try and blaze away with a driver, I'll probably miss, and finish in some sort of rough. In rough? No chance of spin to hold a firm green, and with the front sides defended, one way or another, (as they almost always are on the above courses), I'm going to have to have a serious think about the right strategy for saving par. Choices on every shot. From the tee - Blaze away, and risk it, or play with a little better course management. Missed fairway? How confident do I feel? Can I find a slope to gain some sort of advantage? Where's my best miss area?
Give people a little bit more respect. Just because most people are crooked from the tee, doesn't mean fairways should be wide. Indeed people like challenges. It makes them think. Give them a wide fairway and they'll take advantage without even thinking about the shot in my experience. Give them a narrow fairway and you'll have them thinking. Get them thinking and golf is more interesting. I would hate a course with narrow fairways lined by hazards, (though the occasional hole can help remind people that they still have skills to work on). I'm talking about playable semi-rough (lots of buttercups and clover flowering in ours at the moment) that will cost you half a shot if you land in it. Nor am I saying no wide fairways, given the right conditions, a wide fairway can be interesting. You calling my approach narrow minded, is ironic, given your narrow-minded approach to fairway width. All I was trying to do was to show that, contrary to what Ian said in his otherwise excellent article, narrower fairways, in many cases, may be more suitable to firmer courses. It may seem counter-intuitive, but believe me, it works, and has the bonus of being greener. And isn't that what the article was all about?
I do genuinely welcome your comments Josh, I'm enjoying try to explain what I'm so passionate about.
A question to you; assuming a more drought resistant grass is introduced into a "green" course; on the wider fairways, is "brown" grass in a semi-dormant state and therefore will require less cutting too?
ReplyDeleteRoger
Is this question aimed at me, and my argument for narrower fairways, or for Ian? If it's for me then, yes, in my experience, brown areas of fairway requires to be cut less often. This doesn't mean it needs less maintenance than areas of semi-rough. Cutting fairways and semi is not really a major time consuming issue these days with modern machines. It's repairing wear, tear and stress problems that require time and effort. Semi-rough is naturally more resilient, and a swing is less likely to result in a divot. The impact area may leave the grass damaged, but this will repair more quickly than when the grass is completely removed. Semi-rough will require less upkeep.
ReplyDeleteIt's a very nice blog!.. We often read your blogs.. Very useful and we went through above comments also. very nice and thanks a lot!
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